U.S. – Australia Relations

US Ambassador Robert McCallum Talks to Lateline

Sydney — 20 August 2008

Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Broadcast: 20/08/2008
Reporter: Leigh Sales

Leigh Sales talks with the United States ambassador to Australia, Robert McCallum, about the challenges facing Afghanistan.

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER:

Well clearly the challenges facing Afghanistan are tougher than ever.

This week's resignation of President Pervez Musharraf in neighbouring Pakistan has put extra pressure on the situation, because nobody knows yet if it's going to destabilise the region further.

To discuss that and other international issues, I was joined earlier in our Sydney studio by the United States ambassador to Australia, Robert McCallum.

Ambassador, thanks very much for coming in to chat with us.

ROBERT MCCALLUM, US AMBASSADOR TO AUSTRALIA:

It's my pleasure, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES:

I'd like to talk about Australia and the US in some detail, but if we could start first of all with some of the big global events that have been making news over the past week. We've seen this terrible attack in Afghanistan today against the French soldiers, and there's been much discussion this week about the Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf stepping down. Do you think that that's going to turn out to be a good or a bad thing for the Coalition's mission in Afghanistan?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

The resignation of President Musharraf, well I think the United States certainly supports the democratically elected Government of Pakistan. And whoever the new leader is that's chosen by the Pakistani people, the United States looks forward to working with them, NATO looks forward to working with them relative to the issues of terrorism, because those issues affect the people of Pakistan quite dramatically, as well as the people of Afghanistan. So we're optimistic to move forward with a new President of the democratically elected Government and we'll work very closely with them.

LEIGH SALES:

Is it fair to say that Washington has felt frustrated by Pakistan's efforts to stamp out extremism, particularly in that border region between Pakistan and Afghanistan?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Well, the United States and Pakistan are both vitally interested in eliminating the scourge of terrorism in their own country and in Afghanistan, so we've worked closely with them. There's always issues of has enough been done in this area or that area, but that's the sort of thing that the United States and Pakistan and the people of Afghanistan are working together on.

LEIGH SALES:

The former US Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage famously told Pervez Musharraf after 9/11 that the US would bomb Pakistan back to the Stone Age if they didn't cooperate; what's the best way, do you think, for the new President to try to get the new Pakistani administration to cooperate as much as possible?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Well, whoever is President of the United States, whether it be John McCain or Barack Obama, is going to have to do a number of things with multilateral relationships and with bilateral relationship, and Pakistan obviously will be one of the very important ones. But I think that the Department of State and the Department of Defence, the Department of Homeland Security, have established relationships within the career ranks to continue efforts on both sides of that equation to come to remedies and solutions and aid packages that will assist both of the countries in addressing the issues of terrorism and extremism, whether in Pakistan or in other nations.

LEIGH SALES:

The other big international issue recently has been Georgia; do you think Russia's trying to make some sort of bigger point with its behaviour?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Well, I think what Russia, the President, and the Secretary of State have spoken very directly to this, and that is that the United States and other democracies around the world, not just the United States, support the democratically elected government of Georgia. And international treaties and United Nations' determinations have decreed that Ossetia is part of the sovereign territory of the State of Georgia. So, and Russia has agreed to withdraw its troops from those areas, from certain areas of Georgia, and has not done so. So they've damaged their credibility in the world community. And they need to address those sorts of specific problems. They are contending that they are a responsible member of the international community, and yet their behaviour presents grave issues for nations who are actively involved in the 21st century of multilateral, cooperative relationships through the WTO, the G8, you name it. So those are things that Russia needs to consider very carefully.

LEIGH SALES:

Okay, let's turn to Australia and the US, and there's been some celebrations today of the alliance of the 100th anniversary of the arrival of America's Great White Fleet here. As we know, the two nations have been very close ever since, but I want to raise one subject where I'd like to know your views as to whether there's a difference, and that's on the issue of the treatment of prisoners. Australia's going to ratify the Optional Protocol of the UN Convention Against Torture. The US has not done so. Why does the US hold a different view to Australia on this?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Well, I don't think that the US holds a different view on torture than Australia, it holds a different view with respect to the ratification of that treaty. And the United States has passed statutes internally that prohibit torture. The devil in these sorts of things is also in the detail, as to exactly how you define it, and what the consequences of that are. But the United States is inferably opposed to the use of torture, and has prohibited it internally by a statute.

LEIGH SALES:

But if Australia signs up to a convention like this and the United States doesn't, given the close nature in which the two countries work together operationally, is that a potential problem?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

No, I don't see it as a potential problem at all. What it, it's not unusual for one ally to ratify and to participate in a particular treaty that another ally may have some problems with, often times legalistic type problems. And so I don't see that as a problem for joint operations between our two nations in the area of military activities or in the area of humanitarian relief.

LEIGH SALES:

But what if you had a situation where Australian soldiers had to treat captives in a particular way and it wasn't the same manner in which US soldiers were treating captives. Could that potentially be a problem?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Well I suppose one can hypothesise on anything. That does not happen. The United States and Australia train together and part of that training relates to the treatment of prisoners that are captured in military operations. And there is no divergence that I am in any way aware of as to how prisoners are to be treated. In fact, if you go on the Armed Forces network, you will see in the place of advertisements, programs that are put on by the United States military with respect to the compassionate treatment of prisoners. As soon as they are no longer a threat then certain conventions come into play and the actual practice regulations come into play. And those are no different than are applied by Australians.

LEIGH SALES:

Last night on this program we had an international lawyer named Philippe Sands who has recently appeared as an expert witness at the US Senate Judiciary Committee Investigation into whether Bush administration officials have authorised torture. He's followed the trail of various government memos, and he thinks that there is a case that war crimes prosecutions could be brought against members of the administration. How realistic do you consider that view?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Consider that to be extraordinarily unrealistic because the President has been totally consistent in his position that torture would not be allowed. There are memos relating, legalistic memos relating to the definition of torture. Those legalistic memos don't define policy. They define legal obligations under treaties and so I don't view the President's articulated policy that prohibits torture to be in any way brought into question by that. And I do not see any realistic possibility of members of this administration having advocated a policy that relates in any way to a war crime.

LEIGH SALES:

Have you been entirely comfortable with the methods that have been used in the War on Terror in terms of interrogation and detention?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Yes. And, you know, I have visited Gitmo during my former life as the Associate Attorney-General at the Justice Department. We were involved in a number of different cases that related to Guantanamo Bay. And I actually went down there and went through the facility and I am very comfortable with the way the enemy combatants were administered and treated at Guantanamo Bay.

LEIGH SALES:

Are you comfortable with the practice of water boarding?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

The issue of particular interrogation techniques are always subject to debate. And those are things that are also subject to litigation issues. But in terms of the United States Military at Guantanamo Bay, water boarding was not utilised.

LEIGH SALES:

I want to talk a little bit about the United States' reputation around the world and there have been many polls done over the past few years that have shown that America's reputation has suffered in recent times. In Australia in particular, in polling done last year, two-thirds of people had an unfavourable view of President Bush and only about a third had strong confidence that the US would deal responsibly with international problems. Your America's front-line representative here, and you obviously talk to a lot of people and travel around a lot. When you're meeting with people and talking to people, are they telling you they're unhappy with US policies?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Well there is a big difference between having an issue and disagreeing with a particular policy of the United States of America, but when one starts talking about does the United States deal responsibly with issues in the international arena, all you have to do is look at the activities that the United States engages in that never get any play in the media or the press.

LEIGH SALES:

But I guess I am wondering -

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

And that is, you know, most recently $30 billion to address HIV-AIDS in Africa over a five-year period of time, a $1.2 billion program that relates to malaria in developing countries, a preventable disease, $600 billion of purchases by the United States and developing countries, not including China, that have raised the standard of living of hundreds of millions of people across the globe. The $20 billion each year in foreign aid. $3.4 billion disseminated through the Millennium Challenge Corporation.

LEIGH SALES:

But I guess what I'm wondering is, is that what people are coming to you and talking about, or is -

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

No, that doesn't even include $13 billion a year through charitable donations by the United States public that through non-governmental agencies go out to address problems in the globe generally. So I have no problem with someone talking with me about a particular policy of the United States. And I will debate with that person and try to make sure that that person understands the rational, considered, thoughtful basis on which that policy was determined. Not that I anticipate I am going to change their mind, but at least I can hopefully convince them that the United States in that policy has undertaken something that has a laudable goal at the end of it, even though they may not agree with how we're trying to reach it.

LEIGH SALES:

But do many people share with you their concerns?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Sure. Certainly people will come up to me in various social occasions and say they would like to talk about a particular issue, and I am always willing to engage on those.

LEIGH SALES:

So, you're a political appointee of the President's. Does that mean when there's a new President in January that your term as ambassador here ends?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

It will end in that I will submit my resignation, but it is not because I am a political appointee. In these circumstances every ambassador, career and otherwise, will submit their resignation to whomever is the new President. Even if a Republican was elected, was to be elected President of the United States, Senator McCain as the punitive nominee, I would still submit my resignation and I would, even if Senator McCain wished me to continue on, not do so because Senator McCain or Senator Obama, whoever is President, with respect to one of its closest allies in the world, needs to have as the ambassador someone who is a very integrated member of their team, not someone who has necessarily been here for two years as a member of another team, whether it be Republican or Democrat.

LEIGH SALES:

So have you become very Australianised while you've been here? Can you tell me the rules of AFL?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

I can tell you the rules of AFL.

LEIGH SALES:

Cricket?

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

Cricket, I can tell you most of the rules of cricket. But I have not yet gotten into the Twenty20 one-day cricket as opposed to the 50 overs or five-day Test matches. I was just about grasping all of that when all of a sudden the one-day matches started coming.

LEIGH SALES:

Well if that is the yardstick, you're more Australian than I am if you're on top of that stuff!

Ambassador, thank you for coming in.

ROBERT MCCALLUM:

It's my pleasure Leigh. Thank you for having me.

Original document from www.abc.net.au.

Last update: Thursday, 21 August 2008 GMT+1000